But I feel like I can't wait to point out the only argument that ultimately matters: individuals have the right to control their own bodies in a free society. No other arguments are necessary, and no convincing needs to take place, if we believe in personal choice and individual sovereignty.
Consider Adam Serwer.
I wrote a couple of weeks ago about what I thought were the ridiculous comparisons between male circumcision as practiced by Jews and Muslims in the U.S. and genital mutilation as practiced elsewhere. While I didn't say this at the time, at least one of the major backers of San Francisco's proposed ban on circumcision turned out to be clearly motivated by anti-Semitism, having created a comic featuring a superhero named "Foreskin Man" and a supervillain named "Monster Mohel." San Francisco is going to vote on the ban in November, but proponents failed to get a similar measure on the ballot in Santa Monica. Frankly, the ban would make more sense if its proponents were all motivated by anti-Semitism, since otherwise I'm not really sure someone would have such strong feelings about this in the first place, but I assume some people just have odd priorities.I can't pick on Serwer too much, because this is the elementary argument, such as it is, for people in favor of routine infant circumcision: I personally cannot understand resistance to circumcision, therefore there is no reasonable argument against it. It seems odd to Serwer (that's exactly what he says, after all) that people could resist circumcision, so therefore, there is no rational reason that they might, except for hatred of Jews. And the same breezy, showily disrespectful attitude towards those who care about this issue that Serwer takes is the attitude that people looking to enforce the American norm of circumcision adopt everywhere in this debate. Skepticism towards routine circumcision isn't merely wrong, it is unspeakable enough to deny the elementary extension of a discourse of respect.
In a free society, individuals are free to make their own choices. And they should particularly be free to make their own choices about their bodies. Any adult man is fully free to go get a circumcision if he wants one. (The fact that none do, outside of the coercion involved in religious conversion in order to get married, should tell you something.) Men who were circumcised as infants are denied that right. One position in this debate increases human autonomy and human liberty, and one restricts it. To oppose routine infant circumcision, you don't need to be convinced by the arguments against circumcision! You only need to recognize the right of the individual to make his own choice and to have sovereign control over his own body. That is the very bedrock of a free society: that people of vastly different values and ideas can coexist and recognize the right of others to make their own decisions. I don't need to understand the reasons that others make the decisions that they do. I only have to respect their right to a decision making process that is their own.
The anti-Semitism canard is an obvious instance of borrowing the power of accusations of anti-Semitism to push an unrelated political point. Yes, I'm sure there are people involved with the anti-circumcision effort that are anti-Semitic, just like I am sure that there are people in favor of reforming Wall Street because they want to attack Jewish bankers. So what? If that is the whole of your argument, then we are truly in "Hitler was a vegetarian" territory here. The idea that opposing circumcision must be a product of anti-Semitism is ludicrous. Circumcision is practiced by Muslims. It is practiced in many central Asian cultures and has been for centuries. It is practiced by many cultures in sub-Saharan Africa and has been for centuries. It is practiced in Pacific Island and Australian aboriginal cultures and has been for centuries. Maybe most importantly for this debate, millions of gentiles in America are circumcised. If your interest is in hating Jews, this is an awfully broad target to be shooting at. It's like demonstrating anti-Semitism by arguing against monotheism, like attacking orthodox Jews by arguing against the fedora, like insulting Judaism by arguing against wearing robes in religious practice. The attack is so broad-- it hits so many more non-Jews than Jews-- that the accusation is absurd.
Look, I try to have equanimity as an atheist. But God is not real, and religious practice strikes me as an anachronism. It doesn't really matter, though, that I think that. People can practice their religion all they want, as long as they are not trampling the rights of others in doing so. That is a settled question in this democracy. Your religion does not permit you to force your daughter to wear a headscarf-- and a headscarf, at least, can be removed. Few things are odder to me than the spectacle of atheist liberals arguing to continue a strange religious ceremony that is forced upon people who are completely unable to resist or understand it, and which has permanently altering consequences.
I defy anyone to rationally argue that circumcision persists for reasons other than tradition and the inertia of history. And it is enforced, ultimately, because here in America, it is the norm. It's uncircumcised kids who are made to feel weird in America, and it's the constant assertion that nobody could or should care about whether they are circumcised that is the orthodoxy.
Belief in individual sovereignty over the body is incompatible with infant circumcision. If you want your child to be circumcised, wait until he is old enough to understand the procedure and the choice, present the evidence, and let him choose. If he says no, he can always change his mind. Making the decision to circumcise in his infancy ensures that he will never have a choice at all.
Update: Yes, of course, the "Monster Mohel" guy is an odious individual with a clear history of disqualifying attitudes. I am not and would never defend him or similar rhetoric. Bad people sometimes hold correct views for wrong reasons.
64 comments:
Yeah, makes sense to me. While there's a whole host of things decided for children about their bodies, this one's permanent and of little use.
But I think that few want to talk about the cultural aspect, which I think motivates a lot of thinking about the issue. Many people think an uncircumcised male looks weird, foreign, or unclean. They would hate to force their child to be weird, for better or worse. Therefore: circumcision.
I'm not saying I agree with that, but there's so much talk out there about rights and liberties and religion, and maybe people really need some discussion about what should be accepted as "normal."
I checked the spam filter but it's not there, sorry man.
Circumcision, at least in the United States, is generally a post-ww2 fashion which appears to be going out of style (if the net of a million lies is to be trusted.) There was at least one generation around WW2 where many fathers of circumcised boys were not circumcised, so weirdness was obviously not a major issue there (and it doesn't seem to be an issue now, either; my cohort -- 1960s -- was, apparently, just about universally circumcised, but nowadays it's down to just over 50%.)
I find it unbelievable, however, that anyone could defend the odious "foreskin man" hate tract.
Me too; I'm certainly doing nothing of the sort.
Are you circumcised, Freddie? Because I am, and I have yet to feel crushed under the heel of society's oppression, nor have I ever once looked down in the shower and resented my parents for "mutilating" my genitals without my consent.
I understand what you are saying about a human's rights to their own body in a free society...but honestly a lot of people do a lot of things to their kids that the child would never consent to. Have you ever seen a 3-year-old volunteer for a tetanus shot? And if we are really going to paint total personal freedom over our bodies as a birthright, then shouldn't my toddler be allowed to vote? Shouldn't she be allowed to shit on the floor (using a toilet is a cultural norm)? Shouldn't she be allowed to walk around naked, in the middle of the street (clothing and sidewalks are just the products of tradition). Shouldn't she be allowed to eat (with her hands) on the floor instead of (with a fork) at the table (hand washing, forks, and tables are cultural norms).
I understand that the health benefits for circumcision are dubious and perhaps not a significant justification for circumcision. The health benefits of vitamin K shots for newborns is dubious as well, because it really only benefits about 1 in 10,000 babies. Are you against that too? Because it looks painful for the baby!
Look, if you are going to spend days writing comprehensive arguments against things...spend those days writing against cuts to food stamp funding...or defending some other group that actually needs defending. We, the silent oppressed of America who had our dicks chopped when we were newborns, honestly don't really need you to defend us or protect us. We're doing just fine. Your formidable writing skills are better spent elsewhere.
Maybe you are right, that we should "wait until he is old enough" before presenting the option of self-"mutilation" to our sons. But where do you draw the line for individual sovereignty over the body? You seem to suggest that from birth we have absolute rights to control our bodies. But that is just completely absurd to a parent. I'm sorry, but my daughter doesn't have any rights at all until she earns them. And I retain the right to revoke any or all of them at my discretion.
And one more thought: is it so horrible, really, to force cosmetic alterations on your child because of "tradition and the inertia of history"? Are you just as vehement against parents that pierce the ears of their toddlers? Is that just as offensive to you? Because in a lot of ways it's pretty much the same. What about parents that make their kids get braces? Those really f'ing hurt, believe me, and I didn't need them. They didn't really mitigate any health complications. But our culture admires straight teeth, so my parents signed me up. And yet I sit here, not at all oppressed-feeling because my parents had absolute authority over my body for the first 18 years of my life.
Look, I try to have equanimity as an atheist. But God is not real...
For fuck's sake, Freddie. I know, I know -- subsequent commenters will mock and deride me for pointing it out, because they're just as keyed in to Absolute Truth as you, just as aware of the existence of some all-encompassing, thoroughly empirically grounded theory of reality, the news of whose discovery has somehow eluded the rest of us.
But that doesn't change the fact that "God is not real" is a bullshit statement, a flip answer to a big (and admittedly frustratingly) unanswerable question. Throwing it out there is a cute little trick some smart atheists like to pull (Dan Savage is fond of it as well), I guess because it eventually becomes too wearisome to maintain the facade of humoring us poor rubes who look around and conclude that it's just possible 21st-century Western humanity doesn't quite have a lock on the deepest mysteries of the universe (much less how to keep from eating too many Double Stuf Oreos). You can do the equanimity thing for so long -- it is marvelously noble of you, thanks -- but then, shit, ultimately you can't help but issue a ruling on the single biggest controversy in the history of thought. Doesn't matter that genuine intellectual honesty tells you that you must abstain; that holds for every subject except, oddly, this one. (Your old Wikipedia bio with the line "I reject Scientism"? Except here, apparently, in the single case where it inherently ought to be rejected?)
I don't care what you believe. But I read your blog because I admire your willingness to follow your finely honed sense of reason wherever it leads, no matter how much it pisses people off; and it's disappointing to see you throw that credibility away for the cathartic pleasure of a cheap shot.
I could draw a parallel here between that one bitchy line helping undermine the absolute credibility of your argument and how the SF intactivists (and so many groups like them) seem more interested in the adrenaline rush and sense of zealous righteousness that come with igniting a controversy than in convincing the people they really need to, but. It's all or nothing, all the time, and immediacy will always be more gratifying than gradual, near-invisible, authentic progress..
As is fairly common in blog comments, Alex, you are restating my thesis as an objection. At the end of the day, your point returns to this fact: you feel fine with having been circumcised. Good on you. That's irrelevant. Your preference is only your preference.
Josh, you can hang me for all my words or hang me for one. Either way, it's up to you.
I'm kind of with Serwer on this one. I've never understood why anyone would want to passionately take up the cause against infant circumcision. The main reason this baffles me is that the overwhelming majority of men who were circumcised as infants are perfectly happy with that fact. Who's crying themselves to sleep about their circumcision? Speaking for myself, I'm really happy I was circumcised at birth and have never come across anyone who thought otherwise. Where's the crime?
So Freddie, answer me this: Let's set aside any dispute over whether your argument is valid or not. Hell, let's say it is valid. Why do you care so much abouth this issue?
Well I guess that depends on if you are suggesting circumcision is just wrong in your personal view, or that it should be illegal. You don't really make that clear in this post.
Anonymous, there you go, exactly. It's like you didn't read my post at all. Or just really wanted to prove my point. I'm not passionate about circumcision. I am passionate about individual sovereignty. Call me crazy. You know, that whole self-ownership, personal liberty, human freedom thing.
Incidentally, it's perfectly obvious what you're doing; the "why do you care so much?" is just a way to suggest that I have some weird or disqualifying motives for my arguments, rather than arguing against me. Which, you know, is lame.
I get the logic, but I think it's a fairly useless fight.
There's more damage done by the piercing of little girls ears and the barbie dolling of young females, and by magnitudes.
Hi Freddie,
Anonymous here. Thanks for answering my question. I sincerely wasn't trying to suggest that you had dark motives for making this argument. You're passionate about individual sovereignty! That's a good and reasonable answer. I guess where we disagree is that given that circumcision doesn't seem to lead to any harm, how is this decision any different from the multitude of permanent, life-altering decisions parent make on behalf of their children all of the time? Again, it's the lack of any real harm or victims that makes me curious why people get excited about this. Your passion for individual sovereignty is admirable, but why spend energy applying your passion to this particular harmless infringement instead of the myriad of actually harmful assaults to individual sovereignty people suffer every day?
But words aren't units of measurement. See the first few grafs (if I recall correctly) of Samuel Delany's "About 5750 Words" for a concise look at how a single wrong word can affect how one reads the tens of thousands of others in a novel.
Anyway, I don't have to hang you for any. It's just fucking annoying when someone who is demonstrably capable of making compelling, intellectually honest arguments opts to unnecessarily piss off the subset of his audience he ostensibly ought to be aiming to persuade. But even more than that, it's just obnoxious. I get that it's satisfying to type "God is not real" (rather than "Given that there is and never can be any empirical evidence of God's existence..."), but it's such a petty satisfaction (and its own brand of emotionalism, though a more subtle one), and so below any thoughtful person. Like I said, it just smells of the same confrontational attitude of the intactivists', one that says, "I'm not going to countenance at all the beliefs that are important to you, even though doing so is the only likely way to bring about slow but authentic change, rather than just getting the ball for my side for a while."
I'm not passionate about circumcision. I am passionate about individual sovereignty.
I would have preferred a slightly different wording:
I'm passionate about circumcision because I am passionate about individual sovereignty.
it's the lack of any real harm or victims that makes me curious why people get excited about this.
All operations involve risk of death. There is no such thing as a safe operation. Operations near major blood supplies and the urinary tract have additional risks. Operations on newborn babies have additional risks.
It is extremely difficult to figure out the risks involved in male circumcision.
Here is one set of figures:
Circumcision-related mortality rates are not known with certainty; this study estimates the scale of this problem. This study finds that approximately 117 neonatal circumcision-related deaths (9.01/100,000) occur annually in the United States, about 1.3% of male neonatal deaths from all causes. Because infant circumcision is elective, all of these deaths are avoidable.
http://mensstudies.metapress.com/content/b64n267w47m333x0/
Hi Edwin,
In regards to your statistics reegarding circumcision related deaths, the author of the paper which came up with these figures appears to have no medical or scientific research background which would qualify him to provide such an estimate.
A google search did not reveal any such qualifications, but did show that he is an anti-circ activist.
The journal which published the paper is not a medical or scientific journal. None of the members of the editorial board are MDs. Someone did google searches on some of the Ph.Ds, and found that their backgrounds were in areas such as film and literature.
How many kids suffered from infected foreskins this year?
How many children suffered from appendicitis this year? Yet appendicitis is entirely preventable, if you remove the appendix. And before you leap to say that appendectomy is very different from circumcision, note that appendectomy is also perfectly routine surgery with an extraordinarily low number of complications each year despite its prevalence.
But nobody argues for routine infant appendectomy, because the idea of preventative surgery is bonkers. There are a whole host of surgical procedures that we could undertake as preventative medicine. We don't, and for good reason.
What's more, when you ask how many children had infected foreskins, the answer is very, very few. Even if we take the claims that circumcision reduces penile cancer at face value-- which we shouldn't, given the prevalence of countervailing medical opinion-- the number of children who suffer from any medical malady of the foreskin is incredibly small. You're talking about giving a permanently altering surgical procedure to millions of infants in order to prevent medical problems that are vanishingly rare. It makes no sense.
I'll quote the medical studies:
To paediatric surgeons, the most obvious medical reasons for circumcision are balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and posthitis (inflammation of the foreskin). Both are very painful conditions.
Posthitis is limited to uncircumcised males. Balanitis is seen in 11-13% of uncircumcised men, but in only 2% of those who are circumcised [Fakjian et al., 1990; Kohn et al., 1999]. In uncircumcised diabetic men it is 35% [Kohn et al., 1999].
11-13% doesn't sound that rare to me.
It's really clear that most, if not all, proponents of infant circumcision see the male foreskin as something that bodies just aren't supposed to have, and therefore it's removal is as appropriate as cutting the umbilical cord.
And, sure. None of us are "suffering under the bootheel of oppression", or whatever. But you know what? The kids who have to have gender reassignment surgery because their circumcisions were botched so bad they lost their penises - those kids are suffering under a bootheel. You can't defend the practice by pointing out the unliklihood of harm, because the harm exists and is offset by absolutely no benefit.
And if it's a waste of energy to attack the practice, it must surely be as much a waste to defend it. So if you truly don't care, get out of the way and let us ban it.
Do we prescribe preventative surgery to entire sexes? Yes or no.
I can only assume you don't have kids if you think individual sovreignty applies to children or infants.
Alex hit the nail right on the head in an earlier post. Since no one challenged him on his assertions that as a parent, he has to make decisions for his children, that the anti-circ people lose on this point.
I am all for invidual sovreignty, but, seriously? An Infant?
And, I, too, am circumcised and don't feel opressed by "The Man" or God. In fact I didn't give it much thought until my induction physical when a nurse asked if I was cut or not.
It is unreal the degree to which people keep repeating my argument and treating it as theirs. That saying "I don't miss my foreskin" is irrelevant is exactly my point. You are not the cosmos. "As me, so the world" is idiocy.
Also, who is claiming that individual men feel oppressed in having lost their foreskins? Again, I'm trying to point out that this is irrelevant. What is relevant is personal choice.
My problem with framing the question like this is simple: banning infant circumcision is effectively the same as banning it outright since the vast majority of men who have lived with their piece being one way for 18 years aren't going to change it at that point.
It's also harder for most people to get worked up about as the difference between being circumcised or not is not that great. In my opinion, this should be something that is better achieved through social change (i.e. getting parents to not do it) rather than legislation.
Step back for a second and think about why so many of us are making the "I'm ok with my circumcision" argument. If vast numbers of men were complaining about how their sovereignty was violated because they got circumcised you'd have a valid argument. But there aren't. To claim that circumcision violates individual sovereignty don't you need to present some evidence that large numbers of circumcised men believe their individual sovereignty has been violated? I see all of this energy fighting a problem that simply doesn't exist. It baffles me. It baffles a lot of people which is why they jump to conclusions about ulterior motives. I try not to prejudge which is why I'm continuing this converstion. I'm trying to understand why anyone who didn't have ulterior motives thinks this is such a big deal. If I thought you were anti-semetic I wouldn't bother. I'm sincerely curious and enjoy hearing your arguments.
Fair enough Freddie regarding my personal experience and not feeling oppressed.
But you need to adress your sovreighnty and how it relates to parenting. Do infants have infinite sovreighnty?
For you this is some intellectual exercize about sovreighnty right down to infancy.
Perhaps anti-circ legislation would be more compelling with medical evidence that its truly dangerous. A rise in complications or mutilations, for example. Or if there were those in the anti-circ crowd who were actually victims of said problem.
To claim that circumcision violates individual sovereignty don't you need to present some evidence that large numbers of circumcised men believe their individual sovereignty has been violated?
No, not at all. Only that they didn't have a choice. And they didn't.
What's more, you guys are ignoring the fact that circumcision is permanent, and that adult men can choose it for themselves if the want to. Giving a child a haircut is not permanently altering. Telling a child not to eat cookies for dinner doesn't prevent him from eating cookies for dinner as an adult. That's a completely ignored dynamic in this conversation.
Doesn't the fact that circumcision is benign make it's permanency irrelevent?
And you are ignoring the fact that a child does hot have ultimate sovreighnty.
Shots and other medical procedures are also permanent.
I think the sovereignty issue is, as other respondents have elucidated, less simple than supposed in the original.
Neither of my children had any choice in whether or not they received infant vaccinations. I made that choice entirely for them, and they have had no say over the alteration to their immune systems which are a direct result.
These are deep, systemic and statistically irreversible alterations to major systems of their bodies.*
This alteration of their immunity is not equivalent to the cosmetic change to the shape of an organ which, by custom and law, is almost never seen in public.
Changes to how they interact with their material environments, for the duration of their lives.
And if they were to take advantage of tuition free education, I had no effective choice, since compliance with vaccination statutes is a prerequisite for attendance to public schools, in my state.
And while a person can rightly argue that vaccination is a scientifically validated preventative, he or she cannot automatically leap from that case to the comparative position that circumcision is not one.
* - Early nutrition also significantly shapes the development of a person's body and prospects. And although there are certainly sovereignty issues associated with poverty, poor nutrition and neglect, the basis of the argument for social standards rarely rests entirely the future full sovereignty of the person, precisely because were are not monopathic organisms. We're social, and furthermore, we are born as extraordinarily dependent primate mammals.
(also, apologies for the prior deletion)
I can see the appeal of the argument that individual choice and bodily autonomy is very important, even for children who don't yet have the ability to make their own medical decisions. This, however, is my concern: if there are health benefits to circumcision, wouldn't it be much better to have the procedure done in infancy than to wait until one is much older? Granted, people may disagree about the significance of the health benefits--but then, that's why I think it should be a free choice, since the evidence isn't conclusive enough to strongly recommend either that the procedure is totally unnecessary or totally advisable. My argument (http://sleepydogs.wordpress.com/2011/06/06/banning-circumcision/) is that parents should be able to make that decision for their own children. The only reason to make it in infancy, then, is that circumcision will be less complicated at that time.
"Yet appendicitis is entirely preventable, if you remove the appendix."
My appendix burst and I had a very unpleasant operation and recovery. If there were some way of predicting that my children would have this problem too, I would certainly agree to give them a preemptive elective appendectomy. It could save their lives. The other problem with your analogy is that an appendectomy is a more serious surgery with more serious complications than is circumcision.
Freddie, what can I say?
You look at circumcision and say a crime has been committed, let's ban it. I look for aggrieved victims of said crime and instead find millions of content circumcised men and ask, What crime? You say that doesn't matter, you took away someone's choice. I look for victims complaining of lack of choice in this specific instance and again find millions of content circumcised men and ask, Who cares?
@Anon: But the fact is, there are circumcised men complaining about their lack of choice in the matter. Not many, maybe -- but when it comes to fundamental human rights, we don't agree that just because the majority isn't upset, the minority should have to deal.
Which is not to say I think an outright ban on circumcision is the appropriate approach here.
At some level, sometimes the minority does have to deal. Like, say, if it is infinetesmally small minority.
Human rights changes only happen with both the affected AND unaffected realize there is an injustice and work together. Right now, the unaffected (and many of those affected) just don't see this as a big deal.
I think this -- I mean, people being in favour of it -- has to do with the Haidt 'purity' thing + status quo bias.
Do you remember the Douthat 'smegma' post? It was fairly telling.
Ear piercing is not permanent. Not letting your kid date until a certain age is not permanent. These are not meaningful comparisons.
Have you considered the idea that these men who are not complaining about their missing foreskins have no idea what they're missing? Frankly, their opinion on the matter isn't an informed one and therefore not very useful. It's perfectly normal that circumcized people don't want to feel like they've had something taken away from them, but since they have no comparison, what do they know?
I suspect everyone who thinks its weird that someone would dare be against routine circumcision because they're circumcised and "it's no big deal" think that being against routine circumcision is somehow an attack on circumsised people themselves.
Look, there are two systems. One of them allows everyone who wants to be circumcised to be so and everyone who doesn't want to be circumsised not to be. The other robs the choice with no added benefit. The fact that so many people would not only choose the second system but think that anyone who preferred the first are some kind of weirdos proves that there is something deeper psychologically going on here because otherwise it makes no sense.
@Anon: Sure. Like I said, I don't think an outright ban makes any sense at all. And there are obviously bigger fish to fry, but that shouldn't preclude people from speaking out on this one. It's made a difference: For a while, circumcision was almost de rigueur in this country. Now it's not.
But that doesn't change the fact that "God is not real" is a bullshit statement, a flip answer to a big (and admittedly frustratingly) unanswerable question. Throwing it out there is a cute little trick some smart atheists like to pull (Dan Savage is fond of it as well), I guess because it eventually becomes too wearisome to maintain the facade of humoring us poor rubes who look around and conclude that it's just possible 21st-century Western humanity doesn't quite have a lock on the deepest mysteries of the universe (much less how to keep from eating too many Double Stuf Oreos).
Personally, I have no idea if God is real or not. But I do know that "God", if one means the literary character with the traits postulated by Judaism (or any of the major ancient organized religions) is not real. "He" is a fictional character in a fictional story, elements of which have long since been established to be false. And really, we all know this, which is why people who DO profess faith spend a lot of time picking and choosing and making fine distinctions as to what parts of the narrative they do and don't believe in, what parts were factual and what parts were metaphorical, etc.
And since religious circumcision is based on the claim that the specific literary character of God in the Hebrew Bible is real, I think Freddie's argument is perfectly valid and is not refuted by the fact that we humans may not understand all the ultimate mysteries of the universe, that SOME sort of God is possible, etc.
Yes there are bigger fish to fry.
It should remain a choice of the parents. The parents should be as well informed as possible on this issue.
An outright ban is draconian.
@Dilan: Sure. There are two separate issues here.
(1) Your point about the specifics is well taken, but doesn't change the fact that "God is not real" is still an annoying bullshit statement.
(2) Even if the specifics validate Freddie's argument (and this itself is contingent upon every observant Jew's desire to circumcise their son being grounded in an entirely literal reading of their scripture), still doesn't change the fact that saying "Your God is pretend; your deeply held traditions don't matter" is neither a good way to win this fight nor particularly in keeping, tonally, with the approaches of most human-rights movements.
I haven't worn an earring in almost two decades. I still have two holes in my left ear.
It most certainly is permanent.
But, since it's mostly done to girls without their permission, it's got a reduced value as a comparison, no doubt...
I am the mother of two boys who were born in Scotland. There was never any discussion in the hospital about having them circumcised, and as far as I know the National Health Service in the UK doesn't do the procedure except if medically recommended. Most European men have their foreskins, and don't have any health problems as a result. Why fix what ain't broken? Leave the poor boys alone!
And yes, as a parent I do believe children have a right to sovereignty over their own bodies. Certainly we shouldn't cut into them for frivolous reasons. That is abuse and mutilation. And unless you are so brainwashed that you think God will strike you down for failing to get your son's willy cut, I don't see any defensible religious reasons for the practice either.
What if there's a procedure -- some transuterine laser saw -- that could snip the foreskin before birth? Is that okay? Is there a gestational age at which the fetus can lay claim to his foreskin? Or does his right to a foreskin only kick in once he passes the birth canal?
Excellent question there Matt. Do these San Francisco (presumably) liberals pushing this initiative believe in infant sovreighnty to the point of banning abortion?
I'm with Miriam. Why fix what ain't broken? A foreskin is not a defect or mistake that needs to be corrected, especially if the correction involves pain and the risk of infection or botching it on a tiny newborn. I live in Europe so wasn't faced with this decision, but I would never willingly have put my son through that if it wasn't medically indicated. I don't understand why anyone would. There is no argument that makes it OK to cut a baby for cultural reasons.
I'm cut and I'm pissed off about it.
As a man who has sex with men, foreskins at first were a bit scary - fear of the unknown/other/not knowing what to do?
Once you know what to do with a foreskin, it becomes obvious that cutting it off reduces sexual pleasure.
The foreskin has a biological function.
Other than for uncommon medical complications, both male and female infant circumcision is just genital mutilation of the powerless.
It's about informed choice. An adult can inform themselves and go
mutilate their genitals all they like if they want, but leave the kids alone.
“For tens of thousands of years, Billions of men kept their foreskin without a problem. And now, in the last 60 years, it suddenly poses a risk?”
Nothing is as distasteful to me as someone claiming a baby deserves less respect for his basic right to bodily integrity just because his parents are Jewish.
freddie, your passion about "individual sovereignty" as part of "the very bedrock of a free society", like all things fanatical, drives you to a poor opinions about infant circumcision. too bad too, because you seem like a pretty well-reasoned guy. but seriously, drop the sermonizing about sovereignty and freedom and focus on transforming some greater injustice. realize that sometimes culture trumps justice. hell, skip writing your response to me and go out into your community and raise some funding for a good organization.
I completely agree with Freddie. Of interest, nobody is writing about the opinions of women in this matter. I knew a lady who definitely preferred uncut men. To put it in terms of choice, if you are an adult male, you can decide how to present yourself to the ladies - and remain uncut for those gals who like it that way. That choice is removed with infant circumcision.
Male circumcision negatively impacts not only a males sexual satisfaction, but also his woman's satisfaction.
Condisder the following:
'Female arousal disorder' blamed on circumcised penises
A New Zealand study found that reduced female arousal and fewer female orgasms
may be linked to women having sex with circumcised male partners. Women reported
they were about twice as likely to experience orgasm if their male partner had a
foreskin.
Nine out of ten women prefer having sex with intact men, the study finds.
"Presence of the movable foreskin makes a difference in foreplay, being more
arousing to the female," the study says. "Most likely, reported vaginal dryness
and the related clinical designation `female arousal disorder' is but a normal
female response to coitus with a man with an iatrogenically [doctor caused]
deficient penis."
Full article at: http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/bensley1/
I and my family refuse to practice male genital mutilation. I ask all who posting on this board to read the following study:
Brain Visualization Research during Male Infant Circumcision
by Dr. Paul D. Tinari Ph.D.
Two of my physics professors at Queen's University (Dr. Stewart & Dr. McKee) were the original developers of Positron Emission Tomography (PET) for medical applications. They and a number of other Queen's physicists also worked on improving the accuracy of fMRI for observing metabolic activity within the human body.
As a graduate student working in the Dept. of Epidemiology, I was approached by a group of nurses who were attempting to organize a protest against male infant circumcision in Kinston General Hospital. They said that their observations indicated that babies undergoing the procedure were subjected to significant and inhumane levels of pain that subsequently adversely affected their behaviours. They said that they needed some scientific support for their position. It was my idea to use fMRI and/or PET scanning to directly observe the effects of circumcision on the infant brain.
The operator of the MRI machine in the hospital was a friend of mine and he agreed to allow us to use the machine for research after normal operational hours. We also found a nurse who was under intense pressure by her husband to have her newborn son circumcised and she was willing to have her son to be the subject of the study. Her goal was to provide scientific information that would eventually be used to ban male infant circumcision. Since no permission of the ethics committee was required to perform any routine male infant circumcision, we did not feel it was necessary to seek any permission to carry out this study.
We tightly strapped an infant to a traditional plastic "circumrestraint" using Velcro restraints. We also completely immobilized the infant's head using standard surgical tape. The entire apparatus was then introduced into the MRI chamber. Since no metal objects could be used because of the high magnetic fields, the doctor who performed the surgery used a plastic bell with a sterilized obsidian bade to cut the foreskin. No anaesthetic was used.
The baby was kept in the machine for several minutes to generate baseline data of the normal metabolic activity in the brain. This was used to compare to the data gathered during and after the surgery. Analysis of the MRI data indicated that the surgery subjected the infant to significant trauma. The greatest changes occurred in the limbic system concentrating in the amygdala and in the frontal and temporal lobes.
A neurologist who saw the results to postulated that the data indicated that circumcision affected most intensely the portions of the victim's brain associated with reasoning, perception and emotions. Follow up tests on the infant one day, one week and one month after the surgery indicated that the child's brain never returned to its baseline configuration. In other words, the evidence generated by this research indicated that the brain of the circumcised infant was permanently changed by the surgery.
Our problems began when we attempted to publish our findings in the open medical literature.
Read the full story:
http://www.stopinfantcircumcision.org/BrainVisualizationArticle.htm
Please Help Us End Male And Female Genital Mutilation - Use The Link Below To Sign The Petition.
Support the Universal Declaration on Circumcision, Excision and Incision and The Ashley Montagu Resolution.
http://www.montagunocircpetition.org/petitionform.pg
I'm just going to put this out here for an alternate view. My sister had sons, and didn't have the first one circumcised. But she had three kids at that point, very young children. And you have to be extremely proactive at keeping a foreskin clean. When you factor in day care, how much time the child will spend in diapers, and just time constraints for working parents, that child was not kept as clean as was needed and suffered from infection. And they were caring and observant parents-- it didn't take much for infection to set in. Sometimes it's just that in daycare people aren't trained, and that can rectified. But they had their next son circumcised because of the experience.
In the way distant Hebrew past, and the not so distant Muslim past, in non-hydro societies, it is incredibly hard to keep those areas subject to bacterial infection clean. Ancient Hebrew societies were very much healer cults, and they were all about sanitation and cleanliness that avoided disease. That became codified religious law and is no longer necessary practically and the "reason" has largely been lost. But conditions matter. Not every non-hydro society evolved this way, but the ones that did survived... and that says something.
Is it necessary today, no, I don't think so. But if you don't do circumcision, from an absolutely pragmatic point of view, you have to be prepared.
"Anonymous said...
I'm just going to put this out here for an alternate view. My sister had sons, and didn't have the first one circumcised. But she had three kids at that point, very young children. And you have to be extremely proactive at keeping a foreskin clean. When you factor in day care, how much time the child will spend in diapers, and just time constraints for working parents, that child was not kept as clean as was needed and suffered from infection. And they were caring and observant parents-- it didn't take much for infection to set in. Sometimes it's just that in daycare people aren't trained, and that can rectified. But they had their next son circumcised because of the experience.
..................................
It's a hell of lot harder to clean my little girls vaginal area than it is to clean my infant son's natural penis(intact foreskin). It's not the baby's foreskin that's at fault, but parents who fail to maintain minimum hygiene.
For some people on this board it's easier to have their son's genitals altered, so that they are relieved of any responsibility with regard to maintaining the
basic hygiene of their male infants.
Having just brought home an uncircumcised newborn two weeks ago, I can't say I have a lot of experience with the dangers of infection. But I can say that all the literature we received and all the conversations we had with nurses and doctors indicate that keeping the foreskin clean is not a gruelingly laborious task. Which is not to say that the previous commenter's sister was irresponsible or that infections don't happen -- of course they do -- just that unless every single source I've consulted is deeply inaccurate, the amount of "being prepared" necessary is pretty minor, especially compared with all the other stuff involved in keeping a baby healthy.
And then there's the flip side: Whereas right now doctors are recommending you don't do anything special to clean your newborn's uncircumcised penis (the minimal extra care starts a little later), you do have to protect a newly circumcised penis from infection. I mean: It's a bandaged wound. So it isn't like the procedure is some sort of guarantee of an infection-free penis.
The problem is that a lot of sources recommend retracting and washing the foreskin — whereas in reality this is damaging. At birth it's fused with the glans, and the two only separate later (consequentially, a circumcision requires the two being ripped apart).
It just needs to be wiped off, until the retraction begins.
"Anonymous said...
The problem is that a lot of sources recommend retracting and washing the foreskin — whereas in reality this is damaging. At birth it's fused with the glans, and the two only separate later (consequentially, a circumcision requires the two being ripped apart).
It just needs to be wiped off, until the retraction begins."
...............................
This is very good advice!
Though I agree with Freddie that the point he gives is the only one needed. Here is another point, and perhaps a clue to why circumcision occurs in the first place. It is a way of disturbing the initial mother baby bonding. Maybe it is hard to trace any difference it makes for individuals, but I would guess that on the whole it makes for a more aggressive society.
@Anonymous: So that's why Jewish men acquired that reputation as super-aggressive warriors who aren't close to their mothers.
I was coming up with a title for my own post on circumcision--and found yours.
I'm circumcised and started with a "what's the big deal?" point of view. Then I did some research.
Unfortunately your argument cannot be the only argument. The perceived health benefits and other arguments have to be addressed simultaneously because if they were significant enough, it would be enough to overwhelm the integrity argument.
I'll have the post up after 9am on my blog at http://www.DisentangledReality.com
I'm a 23 year old male who cut at birth, and I'm pissed off about it too. Regardless of any health benefits, which I do not agree exist, I would have preferred to keep my whole body. I haven't lost a limb or phalange yet, except for my foreskin.
What I don't understand is how other people can dismiss my own feelings about my own body. If I want it back, but since it was taken from me because my father is a Jew by belief while I am not, what exactly is my recourse? Why are you telling me my feelings are unimportant or that something is wrong with me?
If my feelings about my own body ARE important, why was this choice not left to me, and why is that not done more on an entire cultural level?
1) You cannot compare circumcision with vaccination because vaccination doesn't remove a certain part of your body that is unable to grow back.
2) You cannot compare consenting to circumcision and consenting to a life saving surgery on a child because if you didn't consent to the surgery, the child would die. If you did not circumcise the child, he would not necessarily die because there are many circumcised males that live to an old age.
3) You cannot compare forcing your child to wear seat belts even though not wearing your seat belt will not necessarily lead to a death, because forcing your child to wear a seat belt does not remove a part of a person's body that cannot grow back.
4) Forcing your child to get good grades, play the piano, to cut hair short, or to eat meat is not removing a part of someone's body that cannot grow back, unlike circumcision.
5) Removing the foreskin as an attempt to prevent HIV/AIDS, STDs, and other infections is like removing one testicle, or some parts of the breast tissue of a girl, just so that the risk of developing cancer is lowered that way. Yes, many people get UTIs and STDs, but so do people that get cancer. It's an epidemic now. If you're so health conscious why stop there? That's like saying, "I'll smoke for 364 days because it's better than smoking for 365 days out of the year".
If the foreskin were useless, then there wouldn't be uncircumcised males being glad they weren't circumcised, and there would not be circumcised males doing foreskin restoration. Foreskin restoration by the way, cannot replace the original foreskin 100%. And remember, just because you and your friends prefer being circumcised, doesn't mean every other male in the world does.
Post a Comment